to irma,

Australia? G.Bush's best friend when it comes to fighting the so called terrorism?

Pacific Islands? Yes, not much wildlife to worry about, but what about marine-life?

If you would get involved into the situation as much as you are getting involved in wildlife protection in Africa, you would be just as frustrated. Believe me.

My signature is still missing - yes - but it will follow. Just havn't had time to actually read the petition. I like to read first, what I sign.

Original von pippa
bwanamich

a bit puzzled about your last statement! why so aggressiv? you should be able to swallow the answer to your first sentense
why don't you state your answers to my questions regarding your kids etc?????????

Pippa, yesterday, I drove down from NBO to arusha with my family. While we were driving near Longido, we saw the odd wild animal. My 4 year old daughter started saying " Daddy, this is just like safari! I can see a buffalo. Can we shoot him?" I asked, "Why do you want to shoot it?". She replied, "It is the oldest buffalo boy with really old big horns!". I never onced discussed hunting with her before. Obviously she knows what I do and has probably heard conversations I've made. At 4 years old, she understands that we only shoot "old" and "boys" of buffalo which have the least impact on specie promulgation if removed. I'm happy with that.

have you ever have the courage to walk serengeti on your own without being heavily armed that would make sense in order to show how manly hunters really are

I fail to see what this has to do with anything. But for your info, I've not walked unarmed the Serengeti as it is illegal, but have in the Selous and buffer zones on many occasions. Not to prove how manly i am but either because of necessity or enjoyment.

could you agree to discussions on any topic related to africa without getting into hunting?

Sure. Can you?

there must be something else you are interested in............which can contribute to a civilised conversation! especially because africa is such a divers continent and has so much to offer besides this cruelty dating back to colonialism.......

I apologise if you think i was "uncivilised" in any of my discussion, though i fail to see where? If you think colonialism was "cruel" to wildlife, I recommend to you the documentary "Africa Addio". Do an internet search and then try to get a copy. African tribes invented "cruelty to animals"

In this - and many other topics - we seem to be trying to convince each other whether hunting is an integral tool of wildlife conservation or not.

I think we will never succeed to do so, so why don't we just accept each others opinions and try to find a solution for the benefit of wildlife that is being poached every day whilst we are argueing around here?

I had opened a topic on solutions for buffer zones [URL=http://www.bushdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?id=162]here[/URL] that hasn´t received much input yet. I strongly believe that the government wouldn't be discussing the reintroduction of hunting if it had an attractive alternative.

We are from different sides and we have different knowledge, so why don´t we combine this knowledge to work out something?

Bwanamich will say that hunting is the solution, we all know this, but I would like to hear more thoughts from the anti-hunting side of this forum on this matter.

I know there is no simple answer out there, but we are all business people hence we can all think commercially and that is where I see the answer. I believe, if we could develope a business idea for a buffer zone that EXcludes hunting, it will be easy to find someone that will put it into practice and hence save the wildlife in that area.

I wish we would be a bit more creative on this side, rather than criticising each other.

Come on, throw some ideas into this virtual room, no matter how rediculous they seem.

"Live with Masai the traditional way for 7 days - The ultimate bush-experience!! "

or God knows what...

OK Carsten, your asked for it. I will paste in a copy of a letter I sent to KWS on 9-6-06. I know it over simplifies everything, but at least it was a suggestion:

_________________________________________________________________________________________
(Copy of my letter to KWS)

9-26-06

Dear Mr. Ewanyonyi:

It was good getting your letter. I'm glad someone is paying attention that the world really does want to help better your wildlife situation in Kenya. Many people are as upset as I when we see many elephants speared in Amboseli, snared animals in Tsavo, people dancing with glee when an elephant falls into a septic tank and carving it apart before it is dead and eating the meat. We DO care. It may sometimes seem as though we are uncaring about the people, but considering that the numbers of people have doubled (or more), and the numbers of animals has decreased and will more and more with less and less space, it is the wildlife that needs the help from people all over the world.

I will enumerate some of the thoughts I have had about this. Whether it could work or not would depend entirely on whether you could get some cooperation from the government or a judge who will see the need, realize the government has been impotent to do anything and create a law by itself.

1. The program's payout would only be available to those residing in wildlife "attempted corridors" prior to date of inception of program. Thus there shouldn't be a rush of people trying to move into areas because they would know they wouldn't be accepted by the program.

2. Find a judge who would allow KWS to pass a wildlife law (and be legal in Kenyan courts) that once people are moved out of an area, the area would be declared uninhabitable for humans and for thereafter would be for wildlife only (no cattle and no gardens). This should be written into law in such a way that the Kenyan government/President/ministers cannot overturn the law and let people move back in. This would also mean that if cattle or gardens are found within these areas, people would be arrested and jailed. The created corridor areas were all donated funds on the behalf of wildlife, most of them from outside Kenya, and people would expect that these improvements would be permanent. Hopefully the Kenyan government of the time would realize that the world is trying to help and would keep "HANDS OFF". If they were made to think that this might be a model for all over Africa, perhaps it would encourage them to keep their hands off in order to gain more respect from other African countries in wildlife management.

3. It might be a good idea to see if KWS can connect with an organization out of Kenya such as Born Free or the like to collect the donations on their behalf. In this manner government officials in Kenya couldn't get their hands on the funds raised for wildlife to either use for their general fund or line their own pockets.

4. I don't know much about the group ranches, but from what I've heard they are helpful rather than destructive to wildlife. Perhaps group ranches currently in business might be allowed to stay? (your opinion).

5. Assuming a law could be passed to create and protect the "corridors", KWS could act as an agent to accept donations also. Their website webmaster could create a separate page for "Help us Create Corridors for Wildlife", let people who read the website know what is being attempted and request donations to help in moving people out of the wildlife areas. Then the webmaster would need to connect the site with Verisign or World Pay to collect the donations by credit card and allow people to print up a receipt. However, my concern with this is that the government might try to get their hands on these funds received directly by KWS. IT IS PARAMOUNT THAT ANY FUNDS RAISED BY DONATIONS TO CREATE CORRIDORS BE FOR THAT PURPOSE ONLY. If funds are used for other purposes, people will stop donating.

6. KWS should send personal letters to the heads of every single safari company that takes people into the Kenyan parks/reserves telling them what they are doing, inferring that since the safari companies accrue a lot of funds because of wildlife, they should also consider making a large donation on behalf of wildlife. In addition to this, the safari companies should enclose a flyer with information they send each and every client suggesting that any and all donations would be greatly appreciated to help create safety corridors for wildlife. Look at the thousands of people who safari in Kenya who would then have this information. Many of them would be potential donors.

Personal letters should also be sent to each and every NGO operating in Kenya explaining the corridor program and that donations are expected to help Kenyan wildlife. All wildlife organizations in Kenya should also be included. Again if they donate, plus send information to all their donors, it would bring in more donations to KWS.

Since the average salary of Kenyans is approximately $200.00 a year, offer each family $1,000.00 to buy out their property. That would be equivalent to five years income for them!! Many of them would be willing to move elsewhere in order to get this payout. Then once they have moved, the area would legally be declared uninhabitable and from then on could be used only for wildlife.

Once corridors are created in one area (i.e. Amboseli to Tsavo), other corridors could be created between all the parks and reserves. You could start with the smaller areas, for instance the people that just moved adjacent to Amboseli near the Serena. They have just moved in within the last five years

THE CONCERNS ARE: Is there a way the law can be written keeping the government from taking funds raised in this manner for wildlife and using it in a general fund and/or from preventing them from overturning the attempt at corridors by letting people move back in?

The second and MOST important concern is: would something like this make the people even angrier with wildlife and increase the incidences of spearing, snaring, poaching? This, above all else, is something that must be avoided.

All things to think about. However, you folks living daily with the people and government problems would know far better than I if this might work.

As hard as I might seem, I don't, at this point, give a damn about the people who have moved into these areas in the last five years. They knew when they moved in that they were living near wildlife. I also don't give a damn about 1 of someone's 300 cattle being killed. Oh well, too bad! I feel they shouldn't be rewarded for having huge herds and losing one cow. The Maasai think they are great and wealthy by having so many cattle (though they all look puny). They can't understand the concept that if they sold half their herd, benefited from the money they made and used it for their families, and slowly built up their herd that they would be farther ahead and the cattle (as well as the wildlife) would all do far better because there would be more food and water for the remaining herd members. I read in one of you papers some time ago the government was toying with the idea of taxing a person by the size of his cattle herd. Great idea! Hope someone follows through with that one!

I also think it would be good PR for KWS to perhaps weekly have an article in the newspapers on ways of dealing with wildlife. Instruct people if an elephant is near not to yell, scream, throw things at them. If they do, the eles. will remember and perhaps kill them. The eles. will remember who threw that rock at them. (As you can see, I have a passion for the underdog elephants). I would do the same with all the "dangerous" animals that people fear and often have to deal with - lions, hippos, buffalos, etc. Also stress to the people how to make the chili ropes and bombs to keep eles. away from their gardens. Have articles for children about how to act if they come upon an elephant while walking to school. Teach them not to run from a lion but back away very slowly, etc. All these things will help Kenyans deal with wildlife to some degree.

I have been very near elephants on my veranda at Satao Camp and have had lions roaring right behind my tent. I know they are dangerous and sometimes deadly - but I knew enough to sit quietly and watch. I wouldn't have dreamed walking out and yelling or throwing things at them because I know it would be the end of me.

KWS has a lot it can teach the Kenyan people in making their lives safer. See if you can get the Nation or Standard to do an article once a week or once a month so the people can benefit from your knowledge.

I know these suggestions are easy to make from a distance from someone who hasn't had terrifying incidences, but no-one in Africa seems to be dealing with the corridor situation. I finished reading Merwyn Cowie's book last week and even back in the 1960's the governments were talking about creating corridors. WILDLIFE CAN'T WAIT ANOTHER 40 YEARS BEFORE SOMEONE ACTUALLY DOES SOMETHING!! If you wait, there will be no wildlife left. Remember, 3 tons of tusks were found in that ship in China and it originated in Tanzania. Many of those tusks could belong to "Kenyan" elephants. Action to protect wildlife must be paramount.

I know this is not as definitive as you would like. However, perhaps as a beginning KWS can improve upon it and get something like this up and running before its too late.

Sincerely yours,

Janet S. Goss

P.S. Just had another thought.

Wouldn't it be marvelous if the Kenyan government decided to match donations made on behalf of "its" wildlife? I know you think I am dreaming!! It would be adding insult to injury!!! (LOL - lots of laughs).

I know the government’s reply would be "we have no money to do this". However, when I stayed at the Serena I was totally amazed at the number of Mercedes Benz vehicles that pulled up at all hours of the day and night - many of them government vehicles. I am 66 years old, live in the US and I have NEVER, NEVER seen as many Mercedes as I did on that stay. Thus I know they have money, It is just their priorities that are out of line.

It is a thought, but one I thought you might all get a chuckle over

jan - welcome to the club: the windmill fighting club!
your thoughts and the letter is wonderful and it would be fantastic if they listen. but i doubt they have got the power to change or improve anything especially because the kenyan government bought mercedes cars at the beginning of 2006 for 27.000.000 US$ which made them unable to buy lorries which would have been desperately needed for transporting food during the drought to the north of kenya!

i think i give up! especially after reading bwanamich's statement which was given by his 4 years doughter! how can we hope to change adult's attitude towards all life on earth if children grow up in hunter's households and obviously sucking in hunter's attitude towards life quite from day one?
frankly i personally don't know any child which has articulated such a suggestion means a little girl has absolutely no problem with killing an animal! by nature normaly it's the opposite.
imagine how many children are raised by hunters means inhaling their wish to kill or at least see it as the most normal thing on earth....................
i really give up - just cannot comprehend.

Pippa:

I wouldn't worry too much about what very young children say or do. I was a real tomboy and loved to play with toy guns and play cowboys and Indians when I was young, but I didn't end up wanting to kill people or using guns as an adult. As
kids get older they tend to take up the interests of their peers rather than families.

Thanks regarding the letter. At least it was an attempt to get KWS to at least start thinking about possibilities to help their wildlife.