I had a conversation with my girlfriend yesterday that I would like to share and extend here. We were discussing the fact that children don´t seem to value life as much as adults do, especially when the creature is very small. The best example is that most children love to squash ants and other small insects. In fact they seem to do so with great passion and joy. We were then asking ourselves if the same phenomenon exists in the animal world. At first we couldn´t come up with a single species but then we remembered our cats which also play and kill any little creature that moves, even if they don´t eat it.

So far, they are the only animals we came up with that kill for the pure joy. Can you think of any other animal, especially when young, that does so?

If anything, I assume we will only come up with predators or can you think of a herbivore that does so?

If this is the case, can we conclude from this fact that this behaviour of children is a predatorical instinct? (sorry- not sure if the word - predatorical - is correct English).

i have watched a tv series which showed a kind of money which are just looking for trouble sometimes and seem to kill also for pure pleasure or entertaintment!

regarding kids: i guess at an early age they just haven't been tought yet by their parents to NOT kill insects or handle small kitten/puppies with respect because they obviously cannot comprehend that they have feelings - is this what you mean with "predatorical" which i don't know?
.......by the way many peoples don't seem to concede that animals have feelings especially in asia where they don't treat cats, dogs or other animals with respect because they skin cats and dogs while they are still alive or they fin the sharks and put the body back in to the sea. they just don't consider them having feelings! only buddists in asia treat animals with respect as this is part of their belief because of re-incarnation.
and maybe an other fact might have an impact: making noise like crying etc.; if a creature cannot cry like fish or ants they just aren't conceded having feelings!

there was a posting here where lions were observed to kill without preying on that particular kill.

regarding humans i guess it's a part of culture and upbringing whether they kill or torture.....

regarding animals it seems to be genetically or in view to the lions a kind unusual character thing.

i have never come across an information regarding herbivore which kills intentionally at all !

Hi Pippa,
my point is that humans seem to require some kind of education to understand that small creatures are also animals that live whereas animals don´t seem to need this education. Young animals don´t kill for the fun of it except for cats. Little kiddens also kill for fun.
The word predatorical I made up. I derived it from the word predator. Cats are hunters and born with this instinct. I assume the instinct makes kiddens practice their hunting skills which looks like killing for fun.

If predators are born with the instinct to kill and all young predators practice their hunting skills when young, then maybe humans have that same instinct which would explain why children kill small animals until education overrides this instinct.

Whether we differenciate between animals that make a sound when suffering and those that don´t or whether we concede that they have feelings or not comes much later when we can think. I am talking about pure instinct and unconditional behaviour.

The post you may have read on bushdrums was from Jan that reported of a hyena that killed a zebra although it had just eaten. This goes into the same direction of behaviour that I am looking for, but I am looking more for young animals that havn´t learned anything yet but are acting purly according to their instinct.

okay, then i would assume that humans have got the same killer instinct as cats! is that right?
but also hunting dogs like terriers have got that killer instinct!
as far as i am concerned this is a discussion which is wonderful for at least one evening and deserves a kind of brainstorming!
written brainstorming might take for ages

As you say, there is a lot of brainstorming and discussing to be done before we can come to the conclusion that children - or humans - have such an instinct.

But if there is such a connection, this might be an explanation for some human behaviour and maybe the solution for it can be education

Carsten:

I think the predatorial instinct is in the genes. In the program "Growing Up Black Leopard" with a newborn leopard whose father was going to kill it and was raised entirely in a home with a family until it reached an age when it could be put with other wild cats, the baby instinctlivey started pouncing on toys and stalking as it would if it were being taught by a parent. That part is just pure instinct.

To "value life" one has to be aware of the difference between life, death, pain, etc. I think in young children that is why they sometimes do things without realizing the consequences (because they don't know about death and many have never experienced pain).

If we are talking about valuing as APPRECIATING life, then you know that elephants appreciate it. You can see it in their manner. In dry seasons they walk very slowly to food/water and the babies don't play much. They are saving their energy. However, after the rains you see them walking faster, heads up and bobbing or swaying when walking, and there is a lot of play among the babies/siblings because there is a lot of food and water available to them and they feel physically and psychologically better.

We all know that elephants know about death and grieve. I had read about it numerous times but had never seen it before. Then two years ago I was in Samburu. I stayed at Elephant Watch Camp which is owned by Oria Douglas-Hamilton. Iain Douglas-
Hamilton trained the guides. On one game drive the guides were showing me the spot where an elephant named "Eleanor Roosevelt" died ten months previously. As we sat there talking, a mature female elephant came up slowly along side of our vehicle. As she approached the spot where Eleanor died the head went down and the trunk started searching the ground. Lo and behold she found a tiny piece of bone about the size of a coin. She picked it up and walked to the exact spot where Eleanor had fallen and died, put the bone there and stood with head and trunk hanging straight for 4 - 5 minutes before moving on. You KNEW she was remembering her old friend.

Pain is something most older animals know about but I'm not sure about the very young. Perhaps they have never experienced pain yet.

Valuing life - to me it would indicate that an animal has to know the consequences if he/she performs a certain act. I find it very interesting in watching animals in Amboseli that you never see an elephant go after any other animal. They live in peaceful harmony. Yet outside of the park, cattle are killed. Why do they kill cattle outside the park but not inside the park when they are there? I can only conclude it is because the humans with the cattle outside the park are agitating the elephant and the elephant retaliates by going after the object nearest him (which is usually the cattle).

It is also interesting that elephants "mourn" their own species, but don't bother even investigating the bodies of other species injured or dead.

Very interesting topic. Will be interested to see what other information we get. Thanks for posting it.