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lions are losing their habitat

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You are here: Bush-Talk Forum Edit my Forum Profile Forums Conservation Wildlife Protection lions are losing their habitat

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lions are losing their habitat

Link to this post 30 Dec 06

bwanamich:

I have no experience with CITES regading lions. However, I can paste some articles I have saved from various sites in view to CITES dealings with elephants that will show you how untrustworthy CITES is.

"One thing is sure, and that is that CITES which should have prevented the demise of the elephant by controlling the trade has failed in its mandate. Instead it has evolved into a political lobby bent on trade and the endangered species have become mere pawns in a money game. In fact, in the past CITES agents themselves orchestrated the laundering of illegal ivory into a stockpile in Burundi, accepting bribes as a pay-off for the CITES stamp".

"CITES seems to have lost direction and purpose. It is an organisation where coercion and corruption appear to be condoned and flourish openly. The so called "Experts" have "failed miserably to produce the accurate data that is needed and when it comes to numbers, both living and dead, they are certainly not the oracle. The only people qualified to provide accurate data are those ordinary folk actually working in the field; who know what is going on, on the ground, who have no vested interests other than the protection of the wildlife under their jurisdiction, and who fly extensively during the course of their conservation duties. Governments cannot be trusted to provide accurate data, because many top officials are involved in lucrative illegal ivory dealings. Scientists cannot be trusted either, because many of them have vested interests by way of funding for their livelihood, so it behoves them to be ambiguous and keep a foot in both camps".

There must be provision made by the CITES authorities to listen and accept the word of lay folk such as Wildlife N.G.O.'s and ordinary wildlife field personnel, who should be consulted on a regular basis by the Monitors, and what they have seen and heard recorded and assessed. CITES should not simply rely on what official statistics emerge from Range State Governments or Scientific Experts far removed from the action, because if they continue to do this, the endangered species they are supposed to save will disappear before their very eyes".

"It is a sad fact that CONsumptive utilisation and hunting (recreational pleasure killing) seem to have highjacked the very definition of the word "CONservation", which according to the Dictionary is "preservation", not "utilisation". Hunting ethics and animal welfare do not exist where selfish self interest and greed eclipse human conscience".

"Concerns that Africa's lions were becoming a threatened species were brushed aside by COP14, so that the Southern Africans could continue hunting these Big Cats, no dissenting voices heard about their infamous canned lion breeding centres nor their equally infamous trade in live animals, which continues unabated".

"In the book "For the Love of Wildlife" reviewed in the October issue of BBC Wildlife, game hunting farms in Southern Africa are described as "an affront to morality, spiritualism, and to all religions that regard brutality to living beings as atheist.. By smashing up the wholeness of the natural world, most notably the magnificent predators, and recovering from the wreckage only those life forms which can be used as alternative livestock, hunting farms trivialise the exquisite; depersonalise living creatures, reducing them to mere numbers which are harvested at the convenience of the master species, and they normalise sadism by making cruelty routine".

These are just some of the quotes I have noted, some from Daphne Sheldrick, (admittedly an elephant person) but one who has had more experience dealing with wildlife of all kinds of a period of 60 years. She has raised just about every African species except birds, reptiles and the big cats. She knows animals, she knows the problems involved protecting them, she knows the problems with governments and their lack of concern about their wildlife and environment and she has dealt with CITES before.
Thus I will believe what she, and many others, say about CITES and their lack of honesty in doing what is right for wildlife. Thus I can't and won't trust any numbers CITES puts out until they can prove that they really have wildlife's best interests above all else.

Link to this post 30 Dec 06

Original von Jan
bwanamich:

I have no experience with CITES regading lions. However, I can paste some articles I have saved from various sites in view to CITES dealings with elephants that will show you how untrustworthy CITES is.

"One thing is sure, and that is that CITES which should have prevented the demise of the elephant by controlling the trade has failed in its mandate. Instead it has evolved into a political lobby bent on trade and the endangered species have become mere pawns in a money game. In fact, in the past CITES agents themselves orchestrated the laundering of illegal ivory into a stockpile in Burundi, accepting bribes as a pay-off for the CITES stamp".

"CITES seems to have lost direction and purpose. It is an organisation where coercion and corruption appear to be condoned and flourish openly. The so called "Experts" have "failed miserably to produce the accurate data that is needed and when it comes to numbers, both living and dead, they are certainly not the oracle. The only people qualified to provide accurate data are those ordinary folk actually working in the field; who know what is going on, on the ground, who have no vested interests other than the protection of the wildlife under their jurisdiction, and who fly extensively during the course of their conservation duties. Governments cannot be trusted to provide accurate data, because many top officials are involved in lucrative illegal ivory dealings. Scientists cannot be trusted either, because many of them have vested interests by way of funding for their livelihood, so it behoves them to be ambiguous and keep a foot in both camps".

There must be provision made by the CITES authorities to listen and accept the word of lay folk such as Wildlife N.G.O.'s and ordinary wildlife field personnel, who should be consulted on a regular basis by the Monitors, and what they have seen and heard recorded and assessed. CITES should not simply rely on what official statistics emerge from Range State Governments or Scientific Experts far removed from the action, because if they continue to do this, the endangered species they are supposed to save will disappear before their very eyes".

"It is a sad fact that CONsumptive utilisation and hunting (recreational pleasure killing) seem to have highjacked the very definition of the word "CONservation", which according to the Dictionary is "preservation", not "utilisation". Hunting ethics and animal welfare do not exist where selfish self interest and greed eclipse human conscience".

"Concerns that Africa's lions were becoming a threatened species were brushed aside by COP14, so that the Southern Africans could continue hunting these Big Cats, no dissenting voices heard about their infamous canned lion breeding centres nor their equally infamous trade in live animals, which continues unabated".

"In the book "For the Love of Wildlife" reviewed in the October issue of BBC Wildlife, game hunting farms in Southern Africa are described as "an affront to morality, spiritualism, and to all religions that regard brutality to living beings as atheist.. By smashing up the wholeness of the natural world, most notably the magnificent predators, and recovering from the wreckage only those life forms which can be used as alternative livestock, hunting farms trivialise the exquisite; depersonalise living creatures, reducing them to mere numbers which are harvested at the convenience of the master species, and they normalise sadism by making cruelty routine".

These are just some of the quotes I have noted, some from Daphne Sheldrick, (admittedly an elephant person) but one who has had more experience dealing with wildlife of all kinds of a period of 60 years. She has raised just about every African species except birds, reptiles and the big cats. She knows animals, she knows the problems involved protecting them, she knows the problems with governments and their lack of concern about their wildlife and environment and she has dealt with CITES before.
Thus I will believe what she, and many others, say about CITES and their lack of honesty in doing what is right for wildlife. Thus I can't and won't trust any numbers CITES puts out until they can prove that they really have wildlife's best interests above all else.

jan, i agree to every single word you have posted!
i also have got the impression that its quota serves the purpose of lobbyists. i have also some reservations when it comes to WWF

Link to this post 30 Dec 06

Jan,
Every single word in your last post was written by an avid ANTI HUNTER. What else do you expect to hear?

Paragraph 1: referring to CITES agents getting involved in illegal ivory trade, you must understand that every member country to CITES (Incl Kenya) have Game Department officials that double up as local CITES "representatives". These guys get paid nothing and hence are prone to bribes just like most Civil Servants. To say that this undermines the legitimacy of CITES as an organisation is naive.

Paragraph 2: CITES is NOT a research organisation. They help in funding researchers for specific work of interest to their mandate, such as game counts. These are done by "people on the ground" and those "who have jurisdiction over the wildlife under their protection" which include scientists, researchers, game dpts and NGO´s. Daphne states that they should involve those that have no other "vested interest" other than the protection of wildlife? Is she implying that all previous contributors to studies used by CITES do not fall into this category? If so, please let us know who these genuine people are? Who shall throw the first stone?

Paragraph 3: As far as I know, that is being done. No one can deny this.....or is it sour grapes on Daphne´s part?

Paragraph 4: The word "utilisation" does appear in some dictionary´s under the word CONSERVATION.

Paragraph 5: Canned hunting in South Africa is banned! The Hunting community through various international hunting organisations amongst others was instrumental in putting an end to this. At COP14, it was Kenya that wanted to propose the enlisting of the African lion to CITES appendix 1 (same status as the black rhino, etc). When they realised their proposal had no scientific evidence and was fraught with unnecessary alarmist statements, they WITHDREW their proposal before COP14 even started the hearings!!! Of course it was well known that the reason the Kenya Gov even thought of such a proposal was because they were promised huge "conservation funding" by anti-hunting orgs who continue to dictate Kenya´s wildlife policy with this tactict.

I won´t comment on the last sentimental piece of poetry but by its liberal use of colorful words I am almost certain the author was british? Their daily´s are full of such touching stories about Bambi and the rest of the Disney family.

Please don´t get me wrong, I do not for one instance state that CITES is perfect. It is not but it is a world wide organisation that has an honest agenda under the most difficult circumstances.

Link to this post 30 Dec 06

jan, don't believe canned hunting has been banned in south africa!!! the opposite is the case! the "new legislation" introduced in mid 2006 offers so many loopholes and serves this particular industry very well yet!
the "new legislation" is not worthwhile the paper on which it's written!

there are some south africans who are really deeply involved in fighting this unethical breeding and killing system:

www.cannedlion.co.za

furthermore here is a excerpts from an email i got from the director of mala mala/south africa to whom i spook during my visit to the most prestigious luxury travel exhibition on earth on 06th dec 06!:

[color=red][size=12px]PS. Irma, I took your comments on canned hunting to the people at SA Tourism and you may well see changes in this regard. Thanks for assisting us get to the bottom of this. [/size]

jan, don't give up fighting for the lion's sake! it's not over yet!!!!![/color]

Link to this post 30 Dec 06

Pippa, Chris and Bev are actually registered members on bushdrums. Unfortunately they havn´t visited us for a long time. Maybe you (since they followed your invitation in the first place), can send them a PM and ask them to fill us in on this topic.

Link to this post 30 Dec 06

Original von Carsten
Pippa, Chris and Bev are actually registered members on bushdrums. Unfortunately they havn´t visited us for a long time. Maybe you (since they followed your invitation in the first place), can send them a PM and ask them to fill us in on this topic.

with pleasure!!!!
chris will jump on to this topic - but he might be bored to get the message sent because it's not new to the insiders