Comment by webmaster:
I split the post below into a new topic as it is purely about lions
..................................................................................................................

Original by bwanamich

In Tanzania alone more people are killed by lions than the other way round.

Original by Carsten
bwanamich, are you sure what you are saying is correct? Including all poaching and hunting?

And if so, is it because lions enter human territory or humans entering lions territory?

Correct me if I have the wrong picture but I can´t imagine lions sneaking into villages at dawn to attack humans. It is more like lions wandering about following the smell of cattle and when humans all of a sudden go bananas due to their presence, they feel threatened and attack out of self defense.

Carsten,

Lions, in general, are not afraid of humans. They are cautious yes, but not afraid!

And if so, is it because lions enter human territory or humans entering lions territory?

Both of course. Lions do enter into human territory where these overlap.

Correct me if I have the wrong picture but I can´t imagine lions sneaking into villages at dawn to attack humans. It is more like lions wandering about following the smell of cattle and when humans all of a sudden go bananas due to their presence, they feel threatened and attack out of self defense.

Man eaters absolutely do sneak into villages to prey on humans. The first incident of man-killing for a particular lion may be due to circumstances but once a lion understands that man is easy prey (and they learn this veeeery quickly I can assure you) it will kill again. There is a very recetn and well documented man-eater on the Eastern side of the Selous game reserve that accounted for 35 documented killings of humans in a 2 year period before it was finally destroyed. The culprit was a young male in this case. Most of the time man killers are old males that have been chased out of their territories by other males, or injured animals that struggle to catch wild prey for food. There are cases however, where healthy animals in their prime turned man killers. And they can be very determined as recounted in the book by Patterson, Man easters of Tsavo. I have read many an account where lions terrorised a district for months and years preying on people with utter determination. Breaking down through the thatched roof of huts to take their victims whilst they sleep. As long ago as 70 to 80 years ago, well documented reports of serial man eaters in the Southern parts of Tanzania.

Reported cases of humans killed by lions average 300 people a year in Tanzania. These are figures from village registers were incidences like these are recorded. Man eating incidents that are not reported for different reasons are estimated at between 200 to 400 a year. On average there are approx 150 lions shot by tourist hunters a year. Poached numbers are not that high as lions do not have a high value to poachers, besides the fact it is a dangerous animal for them to willingly hunt. Lions killed by human-wildlife conflict are estimated at around 200 to 250 a year.
- Edited by Carsten on 06.12.2006, 10:29 -
- Edited by Carsten on 06.12.2006, 10:36 -

hmm, if I add the 150 lions shot by t.hunters and those killed by human-wildlife conflict I come up with 350-400 animals.

Reported cases of humans killed by lions you state, 300. Hence, more lions are killed by humans, no?

What I disregarded in my calculation are the estimated numbers of not reported man eating incidents but if you wish to add those, I believe you should also add estimated numbers of lions killed by humans which are not reported.

Further, you disregarded lions killed by poachers even if accidentally killed in traps etc.
and
I would like to look into the number of 300 humans killed by lions in more detail. How many of those are killed because they were wandering around with their cattle in wildlife designated areas or farms next to wildlife corridors.

Carsten,
What is your point? Are you trying to find out what came first, the egg or the chicken?
Even if my figures are wrong, the point I am trying to make is that there needs to be a balance between protecting wildlife from humans and humans from wildlife. Human predation by lions in areas were natural prey occur is limited and possibly insignificant in statistical terms. More often than not, it is the lions that have wondered from their territory into habitated areas that man killing occurs. Why do they move from their territory? Various reasons amongst which are
- being kicked out by another male
- being old, sick or wounded
- Climatic changes were natural prey has diminished and so they wonder further afield in search of food
- one reason you stated yourself, following the smell of cattle. And others.

In Tanzania, more lions live outside of national Parks where human settlement occurs than inside. Human-wildife conflict is inevitable. You can't expect to move millions of people in the name of wildlife protection if they have no benefit from wildlife. its not going to work.

No Michel, definately not. Just wanted to verify your statement "More humans are killed by lions than the other way around" and I think the statement is wrong. Now, whether your figures are wrong or not I cannot justify but as you say, it is beside the point.

Anyway I am no big friend of statistics. Allow me to post my favourite critic on statistics for the fun of it: If a hunter shoots a rabbit and misses it by 1 meter to the left, then shoots again but misses 1 meter to the right, statistically the rabbit should be dead

So, lets put numbers aside and concentrate on the issue.

Hunting is allowed in Tanzania, yet you have the human-wildlife conflict with high numbers of kills on both sides. Where in your opinion lies the reason for this? And, what do you suggest to do about it?

Of course I do not ask you to provide us with a fully worked out answer that will solve all issues, but maybe we can work something out together.

Hunting does reduce human-wildlife conflict...... to a degree. Whether the reduction has any statistical or conservation value i'm uncertain about. Where local communities benefit from hunting or other forms of wildlife use, the conflicts are more tolerable due to the fact that they benefit somehow. However, hunting has the added phsycological value to the affected communities in that they do see wildlife being killed and they do interprate this as a retaliation; sort of like "an eye for an eye" situation.

The most effective way to reduce this, and one that is already being applied in many places is one of educating the communities on how to "live" safer. Better houses, better thorn fences around their dwellings, no unnecessary movement during darkness, avoid settling in high density corridors and so on.

Ok, but at least for Tanzania this a "as is" description, no?
So, where do you suggest to make a change to the better? Higher hunting quota? More hunting designated areas? More education?