Pippa,

I disagree with you that every hunter is driven by the passion to kill. I know some that are very passionate about the wildlife they take care of. Actually the word care-taker would be the better word for them. They only kill an animal if all other measures have been considered and no option is left. Would you call a KWS ranger that has to shoot an elephant a passionate killer? I don´t. Hence I do make a big difference between them and tourists that fly to Africa for the passion to kill an animal.

The problems we have with wildlife today is not inside the national parks but in the buffer zones where animals go into farmland and destroy harvest etc. If you want to solve this problem there are only 3 options:

1. You put an electric fence around the national park and keep numbers of animals as low as they are,

2. You kill every animal that crosses the border of the park to avoid conflict because otherwise the farmer/poacher will,

3. Or you get rid of the farm to provide the animals with more space, hence allowing their numbers to increase. This is what I ment with turning an aquarium (=small national park) into a lake (=big national park that includes the buffer zones).

Since I guess we all agree on solution 3, how can we make sure all species will survive in equal numbers until we have enlarged the park? How do you suggest to avoid elephants turning the park into a desert which will leave most other animals without food and therefore threaten them of extinction? Please do not suggest relocation because the same problem exists in every park. How do you suggest to avoid human-wildlife conflicts until farm-land is turned into national parks or at least protected wildlife corridors?

Ciao all,

Very interesting comments -

1 - Fencing is an issue I am spending time together with 2 university professors together with large NGO's and the UN FAO to trying to and remove from the Kimana area - Amboseli as this is blocking migration paths and creating an eco disater. The water pipe line build by the flower industries is just as bad. Fencing is a last option - animals should be free to move. I know this causes a human - animnal conflcit but we should (as we are supposed to be huimans with a brain....!!) try and understand the movement and "fence" only where there will not be paths blocked for migration, territorial movement and breading.

2 - From what I have learnt speaking to some of the Professional Hunters - they work together with Anti Poaching units and radio in / call when ever they believe there is poaching activities and some have also been involved in incidents. The hunters pay quite a lot to rent land and therefore are responsible for what happens there including for animal counts (at times) and reporting poaching.

Stats: Only 28% of Africa is currently still wilderness and decreasing fast - North America has still 38% total wilderness.

nico
all over southern africa, foremost namibia and bostwana, you find fences on end! these fences just serve human's interests for more and more land not considering any migration paths whatsoever! and if elephants are cut from their ancient migrating routes they get berserk especially in droughts! if humans react like these poor elephants everybody understands but if animals fight for their own rights because humans just don't consider wildlife needs based on their selfishness the death penalty is put on these animals!
consider that today ethosha pan is only 10 % of the size it was at the beginning of the 20 century! in the earlier days we haven't know "problem animals". no in namibia almost each and every cheetah is a problem animal because due to the lack of free roaming land they are dependent on farmland where they roam! and of course they prey on goats....and all of a sudden it's a "problem cheetah"! but the cheetah isn't a problem at all because it's its homeland and not theirs!

of course professional hunters have to pay for the land and of course poachers are their direct competitors! might this deliver enough reason for them to watch out carefully for poachers as these are killing the animals the hunter would like to kill themselves

Pippa. A little bit off the topic but would like to point this out:

I often read your posts as if the people/farmers don´t have the right to be where they are but the animals do. I agree with you to some extend, but things are not so easy.

For us who don´t live there, it looks so simple but when you do, things are not so simple anymore. Germany managed to kill every wolf, lux and bear in the past. Not a single one remained. By now one would assume we have learned from the mistakes made in the past and do all we can to reintroduce this wildlife. Yet, when a single bear crossed the Alps last year and settled down in Germany, they decided to shoot him because he came `dangerously close´ to humans.

For those who don´t know the story, it was a clear sign for me how things are in Germany. After repetetive reports of the bear destroying bee heaps and killing some sheep, the WWF was given 4 weeks to try and catch him to take him back to Italy where he was originally from. WWF spent about 200,000 Euro employing specialists and God knows what else. (To be honest it is not clear where all that money went). After WWF failed to catch the bear, the council gave the order to a hunting association to shoot it. It didn´t take them 12 hours to find and shoot it !!! Veeery suspicous to me!!

Oh and, Pippa, I am still waiting for your suggestion to my previous post (on page one of this thread)

carsten,
i just read your post ..somehow i overlooked it !

of course solution #3 is the one which i would like to see realised and of course i don't have a clue how to work it out and i am far from providing any solution!
of course today after the mess has been created by colonialism etc. and exploitation there won't be "THE" solution!
i guess it takes generations to get the things sorted out - but generations of honest politicians who execute their jobs honestly and not only from one term to the next just interested in serving lobbyists and their own pockets!

let's take namibia as an example:
namibian's farmers used to cultivate their land and make use of it for their lifestock! that was the past! now they have discovered that namibian soil is not really meant to feed huge herds of livestock neither grow weat etc. now most of them found another solution: create gamefarms where some space is put aside for game, preferably big cats, which can be visited during game drives and another portion of the property to execute trophy hunting - completely unlisensed and without ! and of course all these gamefarms belong to white namibians - means former colonialists! in such circumstances the land should be confiscated and put back into wildlife conservation areas or national parks because the original use of the land is no longer in place! for me it means give the land back to the creatures it belonged to: GAME!
and the landreform which just started is on a good way in that direction!
everything else is in my opinion exploitation of the country's resources which belong to all people and not just the former anf present white colonialists!

but in all solutions one major thing will be involved: EDUCATION! any landreform without education of the natives in view to conservation etc. function in the long run! and a landreform compareable to zimbabwe where just mugabe's buddies got the hand on former "white" land means another disaster to the country and its people!

and as long as natives don't participate in a fair way in the revenue which comes from wildlife and tourism they enlarge their fields and roam their lifestock and therefore wildlife-human-problems won't be extinguished!

as matter of fact one has to realise that only little money stays within the countries in question. the staff - mostly blacks/natives - get exploited once again and they have no hand on all the money which gets directly into the pockets of the whites to overseas accounts!

finally: you are perfectly right regarding BRUNO the bear who suicidally visited germany and austria last year!! and i am sure you got the news regarding the outcry which followed the decision to shoot him! and the part which was played by WWF in that particular case was more than questionable! once more a indication that WWF and CITIES are two organisations which don't do any good when it comes to consultancy and advise!

Original von Mori
OK so lets see how hunters could become real conservationists. Well, instead of contributing to the carnage, they could form a ranger group, and spend all that money on patrolling effectively in protected areas. We all agree that protected areas must be protected, so why are hunters not interested in patrolling against poachers rather than stalking poor animals? It is the most obvious way to protect wildlife and its habitat.
So why do hunters not create anti poaching units? The only reason I can think of is that they are afraid: poachers shoot back. Hunters would never do anything constructive like that not only because they just might get shot at, but also because they enjoy killing animals too much, have a huge booze up and go home with ridiculous tales of their amazing feats in the African jungle.

You have absolutely no clue about what you are saying. I suggest in future you say nothing and observe rather than blabber on and apear ignorant!

Every hunting operator has one or more (depending on their area of operation - concession) anti-poaching units that are actively involved in conjunction with the local Game Department. The company I am involved with spend over US$0.5 million a year in this endevour. Our arrest numbers are higher than the entire Game department and our prosecution rate is in excess of 70%. In 2007 over 1400 poachers were arrested and prosecuted by us. Poachers include meat, trophy, ivory, honey, fish and timber poachers. Dozens of illegal firearms, bows and arrows and tons of snares were confiscated by our teams. Ivory poaching rings were arrested in 3 regions by our effots. We operate over 5 regions, 365 days a year with more than 70 rangers. Our rangers have been shot at and wounded, injured, stabbed and threatened every year but it does not impact their resolve. This is just part of our commitment to the Gov of Tanzania, local communities and to wildlife conservation. And we are not the only ones....